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Key
GREEN - Definitely happening.YELLOW - Probably happening, need confirmation.
RED - No idea whether it's happening.
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Basically I really need feedback on everything red or yellow, as it effects the code, story, artwork, and overall quantity of work we all have to do. The sooner I know the better.
Just to expand on some ideas...
Mini Games: When I say mini games I mean anything that takes us to a new interface (except the inventory).
I like the idea of having a reoccurring puzzle that's just part of the game mechanic, something like the Elder Scrolls lock-picking system, or maybe something like this for repairs/upgrades:
Are we having a fake operating system?
Conversation System: Interface needs discussion, as in are we going to have text floating above their heads (like in The Dig), text in a box (like in Gemini Rue), or a new screen (like in Gabriel Knight: Sins of Fathers)? Or something else entirely?
Protagonist -> Stats : We discussed upgradable parts and combat systems, if we're doing either of these things we need to decide on a system.
Camera -> Pan -> Up/Down : This is self explanatory right? We need to decide this soon!
NPC -> Click to Interact -> Animation : Having a "facial expression" conversation system would eliminate any need for animation cutting down work, (unless we did animated faces within the conversation system).
NPC -> Buddy : Did I dream that we talked about a "click on your buddy to generate a hint" system?
Environment -> Click to Interact -> Doors to Access Connected Environments -> Animated or Static Images: What's the setting and how shall we make the door mechanic work?
Audio -> Voice : Personally I don't think voice acting adds anything to a game, and can detract a lot from the overall quality when done badly. Just my opinion though. What do other people think?
I forgot to mention mouse input. No idea what the mouse is doing... Is two buttons enough/too much?
ReplyDeleteVoices: assume no but leave the option open for yes -- I can think of a couple of voice actors who voice mods who might help if we can show them a solid game. I think a good voice actor brings a lot to a game (the guy who was the liquid metal terminator voiced the main guy in The Dig and his voice is burned into my brain, he made Low alive. Same with Sam & Max and.. Most games, in my opinion!)
ReplyDeleteAlrighty, I'll program it in and stay on the lookout for potential actors.
DeleteDanny and I talked about this the other day when he asked me about voices and I said the exact same thing, even used Boston as an example. Although shoddy acting can turn you off a game, at the same time what's everyone remember about the Dig? 'I can't use those two things togethor'. There's also a nostalgia to be had in hamming lines, especially in a game like ours that (if I haven't grossly misinterpreted our thinking) is going to be self aware.
DeleteDoors: animation is good, we can assume doors are automatic in the future (but if we skulk in an underbelly, doors are pushed). Did I understand the question?
ReplyDeleteYep you understood the question! Ok, doors will be animated. I was thinking about door systems in the future (is the story set in the future or was that just an idea?) and wondered whether they'd have teleport machines (for the entire content of the room rather than the people), or suction tubes, or some other futuristic alternative.
DeleteYeah, future! We can think of door alternatives but shouldn't spend too much time worrying about it at this point.
DeleteNPC buddy: my heart says yes. If we do have a partner, they should give input.
ReplyDeleteFacial expression animation: I'm not sure I understand what this is!
ReplyDeleteJust basically asking how we're going to illustrate conversation. By animation I meant either we see their faces move as they speak (body language change etc), or when they talk the game shows a close up of their face, which animates to the words etc.
DeleteI actually prefer the idea of just showing a close-up picture of their face to show who's talking, and maybe (but not necessarily) have a different picture for different emotions.
Ahh. I like the face idea and the images for emotions!
DeleteCamera pan: that'd be cool! I say yes for all directions (but we might not use it in all scenes)
ReplyDeleteStats: depends on combat, yeah. I tend towards not having stats but we'll have a think.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I mean, for combat (if we actually have that) all we'd really need is HP otherwise it gets over-complicated.
DeleteIt's probably best to leave stats out and just make the code handle events like "if you are clicking on [obstacle] and have [item] in your inventory, output is [one thing] (also [delete hints][save story] etc), otherwise [do the other thing]".
Conversation system: I'm undecided. Will have to mock up some interfaces and see what works!
ReplyDeleteStats, I know that you mean in terms of combat (which I can't really help you with, I've yet to find an adventure game combat system that doesn't dumbfound me or feel like a chore) but is going to be a way of storing extranious data, say, and I'll steal an example from that Stallone movie as my brain is bustin', say every time the layer picks a conversation dialogue that has a swear in it, it's taken out of his pay which is in then tied in his brainjack computer or whatever for the player to see?
ReplyDeleteAm I making any sense?
I love meaningless, character/world building data in games.
Animation I'm not really sure what that means. Won't this be a case-by-case thing? Or do you mean, will there be little thing like say, lights flickering in the background or rain drops or whatever? because again I think those are super beautiful and charming addictions and without them the environment would be a little sterile.
With the buddy, totally needs to have a hint system and full interaction. Absolutely.
Voice I think I already said my piece in a comment, but, yeah, if that's not too difficult for you to be able to do a maybe for. We wouldn't need full voice acting, either, wasn't it Earthbound that just had the main characters talking? anyone miner just got subtitles.
Same with Liz re: camera panning. A lot of these things seem like a chicken before the egg scenario, haha. I meant to ask this before but I lost track of things, I enjoy non-traditional screens, graphic novel style. Does that make sense? When, say, the player moves from one room to the next and the boundries of the screen change. I'm drawing a blank thinking of examples but if I do I'll post them (OR IF YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT THE HELL I'M SAYING)
Combat system again, yeah, pretty useless because my initial reaction is 'none' because I'm a massive nerd who thinks time spent fighting is time I could have spent asking an NPC questions and falling violently in love with them. I've never thought up a combat system before (bad designer, bad designer) but I can give it a mull over.
The inventory thing does need to be discussed, because we need to do some world building about it. I am all for inventory disguises, there is probably a better word for this that isn't that, but when inventory systems have a justification. E.G only carrying things that could feasably be carried, having a note system (for information recollection for the player, and an adorable glimpse into the MC's inner monologue for us)/comm system. With being in a futuristic setting we can obviously give perfect reasons for the player being able to, say, scan a 3d copy of a broken boiler and carry it around with him. I can't call on how big the capacity or whatever should be until we've actually got a plot and puzzles, you know? I know that's difficult for you, but I can't imagine it'll be too much considering it's fairly standard to ditch an item once it's been used.
Mouse, yeah, I don't know! I would have thought one button enough, left click to move/interact? actually, if we're having multiple interaction abilities (say, 'observe' and 'collect/interact/use', the right click could be for that.
Re stats, do you mean that the decisions that you make in conversation choices effect your gameplay? I like this idea, though we'd have to be careful not to make it too complicated - as the walking dead videos said the script for the thing was humongous since you have so much choice. Maybe we could link it into achievements though? I shall look into this as I've never done game achievements before. Loads of other people do it so it's probably not too tedious to implement.
DeleteI hadn't thought about the flickering lights and added atmosphere, but completely agree - I'll program it in so that people can add that as an option. This just involves adding an extra background layer so as far as asset creation goes if anyone wants to do any changing environment light that isn't directly linked to an "item" (ie something the user can interact with), just make it an extra layer, same size as the background image. I may have to revise the environment template.
" I enjoy non-traditional screens, graphic novel style. Does that make sense? When, say, the player moves from one room to the next and the boundries of the screen change." - do you mean like a platform game but more restricted? Or, when you say graphic novel style, do you mean something like in Machinarium where parts of the background become visible at certain points? (Like this: http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/391120-machinarium-windows-screenshot-eavesdroppings.jpg)
Combat, I'll assume we're not going to have one for now and we can review this after the story is written.
What did you mean by "inventory disguises"?
Love the idea of a note system if you mean what I think you mean, definitely up for including that!
Can't remember if I've already said it but I quite liked the idea of having one mouse button and basically if you have what you need in your inventory then when you click stuff you can interact with it, if you don't have the thing you need in your inventory then you have to go find it. Personally I think this'll make the game more story focussed and less about going through every single item you have (which I've never really enjoyed). At any rate, accessing the inventory needs to be easy for the user. No more complicated than clicking on it to bring up a menu that lets you then select a particular interaction (eg "talk to it", "kick it", "pick it up" etc.)
Can we use our mouth on things? sorry, sorry. Yeah I'm not a fan of trawling through items - we'll see!
DeleteNo, I was thinking even less meaningful then that, haha! Weren't we gunning for alternative gameplay paths? I don't know enough about programming to understand what'd be 'too huge', but we still are including things like 'bad' game enders and whatever, right?
DeleteYES Re: screens, oh my god that's exactly what I meant, like Machinarium, I am glad you made sense of that. And a little amazed.
I think achievements need to be done right. What game was it we were playing a while back that had those hideous pop-ups? I think they can be funny/a good talking point, say, themed achievements at the end of the game for doing things that reward the player for being more curious about the world/finding creative solutions. 'Worst Detective Award' (asked a suspect the same question seventeen time in a row).
Yeah, totally concur with the single button mouse thing - I was just throwing it out there as you said you had no idea what the mouse was doing.
So if I'm clear, you guys want automatic item selection when you click on a thing? Although I get both of your gists! I guess it's about depth, for me? I think it adds a lot to a game when you have, whatever the fancy word is, game acknowledgement- like it gives the player a reason to attach to the world when the player gets feedback on doing dumb shit. Or smart shit! Like, maybe game wants me to show an NPC a perp's photograph, but then I wave my gun around instead. She flips out, or calls you a moron, or threatens to call your boss. You learn about the NPC, because you see she's anxious/confident/competant, and widens the opportunity for the player to attach to her and want to play further.
It's subjective, though. I know. It's not something that's make or break for me, it's just nice. Phoenix Wright did it right, but I can name about a 1,000 games that did it wrong.
I have no idea what I was talking about when I said the whole interface disguise thing. I think I meant integration- say, it's not called an 'inventory', it's called the PADD or whatever. That's more to do with story telling ect. then programming though, so can be put on the backburner.
If it helps, things become more complex in programming when we're talking about non repetitive tasks. Therefore adding 100 images into a game is less complicated than adding 1 image and 1 block of text. Multi-path stories is not a big task for me, I didn't realise it was decided (or previously mentioned), but your call either way.
DeleteMachinarium comic-book-like screen mechanic is easy to implement (it's basically done already) - feel free to make stuff like that. Actually, as a thought, would it be cool to have the entire game as one giant comic book format? You have to work your way through the comic book to get to the end, figuring out how to get to the next panel... dialect could be shown in speech bubble format.... am I talking shit? Just an idea.
Seriously love the "Worst Detective Award" idea. Especially if it actually worked. "JUST STOP ASKING ME THAT SAME BLOODY QUESTION! FINE I'll tell you what you want to know." (Although realistically that'd be pretty annoying from a users perspective.)
Fair point about the item selection, if npc emotional reactions to your actions were added in it would make it fun. When I had automatic item selection in mind I was thinking avoiding putting in things that don't add any enjoyment to the game play. I can also name a fair few games that did it wrong. Also - again - this means more work for you in terms of writing.
In the code I'll call things exactly what they are to avoid confusion but "PADD", "backsack of holding", "integrated torso storage device" - whatever you want to call it during the story-telling, completely up to you. Same goes for everything in the world.
That does help, thank you! AND MAYBE THAT CONVERSATION WENT DIFFERENTLY IN REAL LIFE THEN IT EXISTS IN MY MEMORY that has happened before. It wasn't so much multi-path as, say, having unique end game scenarios?
DeleteI think it'd only be really annoying if it was the ONLY solution. I love things that reward the explorerer. Or you just blunder into them and it's something to rave about. 'did you get the ___?' 'no but i accidentally ____'
I hadn't actually thought of anything outside of a standard point and click. It'd be interesting, totally change what we were aiming for, but maybe that'd be good? it'd be more like a platformer? Well, I'm game if everyone else is. It would be more challanging to make, but then probably more suited to iPad/smartphone/whatever?
Yeah, that's why I said put it on the backburner. It's not important right now. I wasn't reading back what I was writing, haha!
KotOR did a couple of endings and I really enjoyed having the power to make the choice, so I'm all for it.
DeleteI like the idea that the character could tell the other character something really pointless and get a "why on earth are you telling me this" response. Could add some humour, (not to mention a bit of realism). One thing that really made Beneath the Steal Sky great was the contrast between Foster's chipper light-hearted persona and Joey's attitude problem - they played off each other well. Best of all was the lack of consistency, like when Joe showed fear or delight.
The comic idea may well be more of a challenge, but as far as I know it's original, and could work pretty well. I say we do some brain storming on this matter though, if it's something people are interested in. Refine the idea a bit.
I'm not sure I like the comic idea - at least, how it is in my head. We'd run the risk of it being more like a static hidden object game. Animating things in panels would be a lot of work (less reusing assets) and environments are obscured with perspective. I can't check the Machinaruim links so I can't comment on that. Tell me if I've misinterpreted!
DeleteBeneath A Steel Sky did comics in its intro cutscene, didn't it? It did SOMETHING cool.
As for meaningless stats: YES PLEASE. he is an android and I guess, in context, his boss is tracking him and his other androids. (time spent on the case: 3hrs27 minutes. Weird things picked up from the floor: 18. Time wasted asking all the npcs all the questions: 4hrs12. Docked pay: 556 space credits. Recommend system reset)
Deletehggrffffffffffhhhhhhhhuuuh
DeleteWhen you say "static hidden object game", can you give an example? I don't think we have the same idea in mind as in my head we'd get to re-use assets just as much as if we didn't get to do it that way. When you can post/view images again we can come up with some concepts/story boards and have a proper think about it.
DeleteYeah, I think we all have different ideas of what you meant when you said 'escape from comic book panels' as a set-up. A static hidden object game is like what you were playing around mine where you had to search for the wagon wheel hidden in the environment and click on it. Just a straight up puzzle, basically, with a bare-bones justification.
DeleteI thought it might be. And yeah, God, we don't want to make that! Haha.
DeleteThat's what I was worried about!! You'll have to explain what you mean by comic panels, then. I'm back now! Back onto my glorious computer.
DeleteI can't make new posts, so:
ReplyDeleteif we develop for pc, how possible is it to port to android/iphone/ipad? I prefer pc but it'd be good to keep it in mind, if possible.
I just looked into it.
DeleteTo develop for iPhone and iPad you need to use xCode which you can only get for mac. The thought of working on it makes my heart sink because not only is the interface of xCode horrific, but every time I turn my mac on it gives off "I'm about to die" vibes. I'd have to learn a new programming language and convert the game into that language, no idea how time consuming that'd be, and then we'd need to fork out £62 to register (one of us) as a mac developer, then in order to get it up on the app store we'd need to get it approved by Apple, which means that we'd have to get quite serious in the testing phase. ...BASICALLY I'm not saying no, but let's make a profit first.
As for Android, looks like it accepts c++ (kind of) although everyone's general consensus is that you really should use Java, so again, (may) need to learn a new language. That said, there's no extra costs, I don't have to use a mac, everyone I know who's developed in Java has said they really like it, generally speaking making an android app sounds like fun so although again I think we should make a profit first, this sounds like a great idea at some point.
Alright! Let's stick to what we know. Android will be up to you in the future!
ReplyDelete